That’s a good point. It seems like people are searching for this or something similar, so I guess we’ll have to see if any particular marker comes of it. Like you said, the accumulation of kJ’s (and work, which would impact CTL/ATL) are not all equal, so that’s the tricky part in finding some kind of a decay marker.
I’ve used submaximal testing to ascertain “readiness” in the past, but that of course takes some time and is not a readily available marker. But it seems to fit the bill to at least tell if someone is recovered adequately to take on more load.
hey guys, great thread. One thign i’ve noticed about this forum is that while the activity level may be lower than some other forums, the input is all top quality (signal to noise ratio is high). So keep it up.
One question about the recommendations. E.g., do one of this ride per week, one of this ride per week but only a few times, etc. What assumptions are those recommendations subject to? Because i would think that, depending on how the rest of your week is structured, you could potentially do as many long easy rides as you want. Or maybe not "as many as you want’ but as many as you can and be able to recover with no long-term detriment. Or is that not the case?
second, just a quick anecdote. I used to poopoo these types of guardrails about things like longer aet rides based on past experience. When i first started cycling tehse were the ONLY type of rides i did, and i was fine, so how could it be that you should only do them a couple times lest you overtrain? So i have been regularly going on hard MTB rides for many hours, thinking i’d be fine.
Anyway, lo and behold, the wheels just sort of fell off the bus this past week. I started training again after a rest week, and immediately could tell something was off. Felt tired, HRV is low, RHR is high, I had muscle pains in the legs for one day and chills at night the night before, even though i know i’m not sick because i’ve been isolated (so couldn’t have picked up a virus).
I feel a lot better now, although still not great and RHR is still through the roof. I think i should start training–sometimes it’s hard to tell for me if RHR will get better with rest, or it’s because i’m resting too much–but i only feel like training easy. My plan is to go on a few easy rides then start rebuilding, but do it much more carefully this time.
Thank you for the feedback! I’m glad to hear you’re enjoying the quality in the forum. We’re lucky to have a lot of great experts and community members to contribute to the many discussions.
I can relate to your previous training of operating outside of any particular guardrails. What I learned from it is that the adaptations came, but they were only to a certain point. Then there was a necessary change to the training in order to continue seeing progress. My experience was in exactly that - long MTB rides for many hours. It was good for some stuff (like long MTB rides for many hours ), but not really that good for the MTB races I was entering.
To your question on the assumptions made when making recommendations - there are certainly boundaries that we either keep in our mental toolbox for things that seem to work and things that don’t seem to work. In addition, as we gain experience and test new concepts, we find the same thing - some things work better than others, and some things that “don’t” work for some people actually work for other athletes. So all of that, as generic as I’m making this sound (so it doesn’t get really long-winded), really helps to shape those assumptions, boundaries, guardrails, or whatever we want to call them over the years.
It sounds like you had an interesting experience lately when the wheels came off this past week. It’s always nice to have access to so much data (HRV, RHR, Power, etc.) because we can tell when we’re off. You didn’t happen to get a Covid vaccine recently did you? I’ve seen quite a few posts on some Facebook groups with people posting some pretty far-out physiological responses following their vaccine. Low power, very high HR, etc. Just a timely thought with all the vaccinations going on lately.
I think you’re taking a smart approach now - getting back into it slowly, especially if that’s what feels right intuitively. I would run with it. Again, having experienced something similar personally, it was hard to make that shift and start easy when I thought the only way to do it was to go hard. But you will be surprised if you can take a bit of a long-term approach and let those adaptations come gradually.
I appreciate the thought about taking the long-term view. I think for me, and maybe this is something for others to keep in mind also, that what that means is (a) go easier on the long rides, because the long hard rides (especially on the MTB side) can be super taxing, but also (b) build in more recovery in between rides and maybe plan on an 8 or 10 day schedule instead of a 7 day one.
How do you tend to do your MTB rides, in that case? It seems like one option is to be very disciplined about keeping them easy, but as we know, because of terrain (and excitement ) this can be hard. So . . . do you sometimes just go as hard as you want, but be super discipilned about keeping the ride short?
You’re welcome, @BikerBocker. Yes, I think those points are great - easier on the long rides and build in flexibility into your schedule. The 8-10 day schedule vs 7 day schedule can be a great way to block up your training and recovery periods.
Early in the season and through the spring I’ll try to do my MTB rides on terrain that will allow me to maintain the appropriate intensity “most” of the time. I know there will be points where the terrain will dictate more and I’ll do the absolute lowest possible effort to get through it, but at the expense of a higher HR/power response. It’s part of the deal though and I understand that if I can be disciplined for 80-90% of my ride on the dirt, it’s all good.
When we had our first kid and I was super time crunched I would have 1-2 days per week where I’d have barely 60 minutes to get out on the bike, and of course went straight to the trails since they were a perfect 10 min warm-up from the house. I’d go out and completely throttle myself for 45 minutes and then come back home. That was perfect for that time frame. The rest was easy riding indoors.
Now that I have more time and a better ability to structure the rides, I find that I’m doing less of that approach and more of the approach of scheduling those structured/disciplined long MTB rides. I’ll aim to push certain MTB rides to the longer end of the spectrum here and there, upwards of 5-7 hours. That way I’m forced into pacing myself! Aside from that, I’ll try to build around big days a few other moderately long rides where the legs aren’t feeling stellar and then will try to tune into the body, and similarly, not push too hard and try to remain more disciplined. It’s those days where the body feels absolutely stellar that it makes it hard to contain the excitement!
Thanks Ryan. I think i am finally starting to get it. Based on reading this response plus your previous responses in other threads and even (I think i recall) on the podcast, you HAVE sometimes done like, ultra-overload MTB rides in the past, but approached them as more of a capstone to a training block, or a “soul” ride for fun, rather than like a regular element of training.
Maybe that’s what i can do. Keep it generally controlled, endurance pace plus controlled intervals, and still occasionally do long, hard rides, but few of them, very infrequently, almost like a substitute for racing, and expect lots of rest afterwards.
and it absolutely smoked me. Season on pause for weeks afterwards.
But maybe the ride was only half the problem, and the rest of hte problem was: (i) what i did before, (ii) what i did after, (iii) what I tried (unsuccessfully) to do the week after, i.e. keep training as if nothing had happened
@BikerBocker, wow, what a ride! Impressive! Yes, that’s the kind of ride that I would look to do on the MTB as a soul ride or capstone type of ride. It’s fun, you can look forward to it, and then when you finish you can plan some good recovery to ensure you bounce back from it.
I like what you said about doing them as a substitute for racing. In terms of the big days like that, it will end up feeling kind of like a race because the training load will be so high and you should be cooked after it. And I completely agree - it’s all about what you do before it, after it, and then in the following days/weeks. That’s a great key point you made - with a ride like that, you can’t go right back into training as if nothing happened.
Excellent example, and this is why we do this stuff, right? We learn from it and then get better at integrating big rides like this into our calendar.
), but not really that good for the MTB races I was entering.
) this can be hard. So . . . do you sometimes just go as hard as you want, but be super discipilned about keeping the ride short?