Effects of Anaerobic Capacity workouts

[DaveQB]

Not sure if this belongs here or the “Workout Lab”.

Did my first FRC/Anaerobic Capacity workout Tuesday around 5pm. Came into it hydrated and fueled but not overly with either. 6*30s, all out (no pacing) with 7 minute rests. It was hard, harder than I expected but no more than an all-out 20 minute effort. Although my body disagreed. I felt light headed for longer after I finished the workout. Then…

• continued light headedness for about an hour
• HR was around 90-100 for awhile with my heart beats the strong type you can feel in your head
• kidney pain (2/10) (continued until about 4am, especially after pissing, mild rhabdomyolysis?).
• dry mouth (until about 1 hour after workout).
• later that night, felt cold but skin was really hot to touch (continued until about 11am the next day) and woke every 3 hours to piss (clear though).
• next day I continued to have cold/flu like symptoms

See my readiness score the next morning.

The next day I was very average. Slept very well the next night and readiness score reflects that.

I had no idea I could do this much damage to myself on a bike, inside my house, doing a workout with only 3 minutes of work no less! It didn’t feel exceptional during the workout.

Has anyone else experienced this? I am a little fearful about trying another AnCap workout again.

Thanks.

[steveneal]

Hello @DaveQB , this won’t really be an answer sorry, might even bring up more questions. I am hoping someone can give more insight into some of the great information you provided. I like how much detail you are looking into about your body and how the work is affecting you in different ways.

I do really like to use omegawave as I find it helps dig deeper into the different possibilities and make better workout (other decisions - cold therapy, type of strength training, type of endurance training, respiration training type before session??) to do to change our situation and try and decide the effect of different manipulations of life and training and the effect they have.

Below is a period of a few days before and after training and the info I look at.

Sunday April 10 data - before and after training session.

Monday Before Whoop (have found similar if not identical results to Oura)

Sunday After Training Session

Monday Before Training

Monday Before Whoop

If you look closely it identifies my Zone 3 at 139 ceiling, my current LBP heart rate is 140.

[robertehall1]

Hiya @DaveQB.
Sounds like you had a really good workout and maybe overdid it??
FYI, rhabdomyolysis may have some achy general body pain (myalgia) worse in the muscles that were damaged (legs), but it won’t cause flank “kidney” pain. Red/brown urine from myoglobin is suggestive.
Dr. Rob.

[DaveQB]

Thanks guys.

@steveneal

I do really like to use omegawave

I recall you talking with Mateusz about Omegawave. That’s incredible detail. This all from only training data and Whoop/Oura sleep data? Seems too detailed to be true.

You’ve piqued my interest now.

@robertehall1

FYI, rhabdomyolysis may have some achy general body pain (myalgia) worse in the muscles that were damaged (legs), but it won’t cause flank “kidney” pain. Red/brown urine from myoglobin is suggestive.

Ok. Thanks. That’s the best I could come up with using Google. No medical supervision in sight
I don’t know them. I had no leg pain at all and urine was normal to clear. Baffles me.

So I followed this up with a 6*20s workout, with longer rest (8m). Limited my time out of the saddle (last 3 efforts were all in the saddle), resulting in less power. It felt a more comfortable workout and I didn’t have these symptoms later, but I did sleep 10 hours that night. So it seems these AnCap workouts take more out of you (me anyway) than it feels like while doing them. Always learning.

[scooter]

@DaveQB

FRC/Anaerobic Capacity workout

for those of us not so well aware what does an FRC/Anaerobic Capacity workout look like from a % FTP profile point of view?

[steveneal]

@DaveQB

I recall you talking with Mateusz about Omegawave. That’s incredible detail. This all from only training data and Whoop/Oura sleep data? Seems too detailed to be true.

You’ve piqued my interest now.

Hi, that is all from resting data, but with ekg level heart rate monitor.

Do a little research on omegawave and fatigue science, many are using them together now.

[DaveQB]

Sorry I didn’t see this reply earlier.

For the intensive version (20-30s intervals) it is all out. So no percentage. It is a declining power graph. Example, my 30s from the initial post, I was averaging anywhere from 680-780 watts but peaking at about 950-1000. For extensive, 60-90s you pace it. I used my power curve to think 500w for 60s would be good and I was exactly right. First intervals were good, last few I was struggling. Last interval was my worst with a 499w average. Just couldn’t hold it

[Mudge]

It ‘may’ have been the workout, but in my experience with issues such as you describe, I’d guess it’s more likely that you were sick before doing the workout. Maybe not sick enough to distinguish it from the feeling of being a little tired from training, but sick enough that a high intensity workout put you over the edge.

[DaveQB]

Interesting thought. I never thought of that. It didn’t turn into any full illness, but doesn’t mean I wasn’t. Thanks

[Anthony_S]

FWIW, I concur completely with Coach Neal - Omegawave and Fatigue Science are central to my assessing my workout intensities and subsequent programming. Using those data together with Moxy monitors measuring in real-time my muscle oxygen saturation and desaturation slopes, however, is even more critical for me. (Sadly, however, the advanced metrics Coach Neal shows in his screen shots of OW efforts is available only in the Coach+ version and, at least for me, that cost is out of the ball park to gather the kind of specificity that shows up.)

More to the point, however,Could you have so emptied your tank w/ the intensity of the workout that you were O2 desaturated and had equivalently hemoglobin deprived your musculature? IOW, rest interval length notwithstanding, and despite hydration and rest levels at the onset of you efforts, you had absolutely nothing left in the tank? Moxy would have shown you if that were the case.

Also, what was ambient temperature and humidity in the room where you were working out? Did you have an accurate measure of hydration loss?? Hyponatremia? As to the latter possibility, read this:

“7. Muscle cell breakdown (rhabdomyolysis) with the development of acute kidney failure. Although there have been isolated reports of rhabdomyolysis and EAH occurring at the same time, the study of Bruso, Hoffman, and colleagues (2010) is the first to define this relationship in five competitors in the 2009 Western States 24-Hour/100-Mile Endurance Run. Blood sodium concentrations ranged from 127 to 134 mmol/L and all had blood creatine kinase activities in excess of 40,000 U/L (normal postrace values are up to ~2,000 U/L), indicating the presence of severe muscle cell breakdown; the highest value was >95,000 U/L. Three developed acute kidney failure; the most severely affected athlete required 12 days of hospital care.

Thus, far from protecting against acute kidney failure, aggressive drinking sufficient to produce EAH can, by mechanisms that are currently unknown, induce muscle cell damage that is sufficient to cause kidney failure. It is reasonable to assume that any level of overhydration will impair muscle cell function and hence athletic performance, and in some this effect will be sufficient to produce significant muscle cell damage.” Excerpted from this link:

Seven clear symptoms of Exercise-Associated Hyponatremia

HTH, Anthony

[geraldm24]

I’m starting, next week, with FRC/Anaerobic Capacity workouts, but as my first one for the season, I’m planning on starting with the lowest number of repetitions on the optimized intervals targets, and adding one each week.

4x38s seems a lot easier than 10x38s (upper range).

[DaveQB]

@Anthony_S

FWIW, I concur completely with Coach Neal - Omegawave and Fatigue Science are central to my assessing my workout intensities and subsequent programming.

I still haven’t looked at Omegawave. I will definitely get to that. Thanks.

@Anthony_S

More to the point, however,Could you have so emptied your tank w/ the intensity of the workout that you were O2 desaturated and had equivalently hemoglobin deprived your musculature? IOW, rest interval length notwithstanding, and despite hydration and rest levels at the onset of you efforts, you had absolutely nothing left in the tank? Moxy would have shown you if that were the case.

I did feel spent after each interval, yes. Here’s the moxy data for this workout. See what you think:

@Anthony_S

Also, what was ambient temperature and humidity in the room where you were working out? Did you have an accurate measure of hydration loss?? Hyponatremia? As to the latter possibility, read this:

I could have been a little dehydrated, but nothing huge. I was working all day, sitting at my desk. I didn’t drink as much as normal, but wasn’t sweating all day though. Definitely not hyponatremia though.

@Anthony_S

“7. Muscle cell breakdown (rhabdomyolysis) with the development of acute kidney failure.

This is what I suspected but @robertehall1 's comments makes me think otherwise.

Thanks for the reply.

[Anthony_S]

Dave, do you have a chart showing power output that is time sync’d with the O2 and THb data? May I assume your workout was outside and, if so, the first two dips in O2 were occasioned by hills, and so were ‘topography’ intervals?

Looking at the chart on which I’ve superimposed lines of best (sic) fit, it appears to me that your SmO2 did not recover from your 20" intervals until you assumed a seated position, and then not until half way through #4. Moreover, #5 SmO2 recovery flat-lined below #4. Even so briefly showing some restoration in THb on #4, you were beginning to "running on empty"by the end of #5.

Disclaimer: Please take with a major grain of salt, Dave, and colleagues, because I’m very new at these interpretations. So I welcome any and all corrections, and I’f I’ve really screwed up, my apologies for sure.

[DaveQB]

@Anthony_S

Dave, do you have a chart showing power output that is time sync’d with the O2 and THb data?

@Anthony_S

May I assume your workout was outside

Indoors.

@Anthony_S

it appears to me that your SmO2 did not recover from your 20" intervals until you assumed a seated position, and then not until half way through #4. Moreover, #5 SmO2 recovery flat-lined below #4. Even so briefly showing some restoration in THb on #4, you were beginning to "running on empty"by the end of #5.

Interesting analysis. Thanks. I haven’t looked at that. It looks like between #3 and #4 I hit my highest THb which matches around the 30-40min mark where I am often seeing my highest smO2 and THb regardless of the workout/ride. I am starting to think it takes at least 30mins for my aerobic system to come online

Looking at the graphs the way you have, it does look like THb didn’t bounce back that well after intervals #3, #4, #5 and #6. Interesting

Thanks

[Anthony_S]

Good point, Dave,

My coach has instructed me that 20-30’ is /should be typical warm up time. Workouts he has structured for me are set up that way, with effort during that time frame expended so as to show a positive celebration in saturation w/o evidence of desaturation.

[steveneal]

I agree with 30-40m warm-up time…many don’t have the time but it is optimal, and the first 10m must be very easy…

[steveneal]

Hello @DaveQB hope you are well!

What was the date of this session being discussed in the thread? Would like to download the file and look at in my software.

[DaveQB]

Hi @steveneal

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MwxR_VrgkmtFmMVqzlNRdeqHENNUSkC_/view?usp=sharing

FIT file found here for anyone interested to download.

Please don’t waste any time on this just for me though, I am happy with the conclusions made in this thread.