How are you measuring this? A metabolic cart?
I find that fat rebound after the intensity quite interesting. I always assumed that once you’d crossed over it would be a long delay before your body would want to begin prioritising fat again but that graph shows only a 5 min rest at low intensity.
So, I’ve done tempo training for 6 weeks now. The week before I was kind of burnt out so I took an easy week. Today I retested. My eFTP according to WKO moved from 226 to 241 with tempo training.
I feel pretty happy with the results.
Steve, are you still working on this? Thanks!
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Not yet other things keep popping up.
I will try.
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Awesome! and yup!
Which event?
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Nice one! Very pretty there for sure.
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So, I signed up for a 16-week base training program and we’re in the last week of the third block. The general progression has been endurance —> tempo —> sweet spot with threshold scheduled for the next block.
I missed my volume target for the first time this week. Part of that is because I know I have tomorrow off and get get another big day in, but the main thing is sweet spot three days a week just burns me up. Honestly, I didn’t want to get on the bike this morning. My buddy, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to struggle.
Are some athletes better able to handle threshold work? I feel like up to tempo I can manage, and sustain high (relative) volume even when incorporating a really hard day, but (sustained) sweet spot and threshold work gets to me pretty quick.
Thanks!
Hi
I think this is where I try and get dialled in.
If your buddy is training at his balance point ( I believe you understand the reference) and you are above yours while in sweet spot then that’s why there are two different results.
What is the threshold you are basing this training off?
What is the range for sweet spot for these sessions?
Do you have a fit file of one of these sessions where you had your moxy on?
Hi @steveneal, thanks for your quick reply! I will send the files after posting this. I should have been wearing the Moxy for all of the rides. With regards to zones, here is my current understanding of my situation.
- LT1 is somewhere between 180 and 200w. Lactate testing and Moxy have put it right at 200w but that is when I’m fresh.
- Tempo based on Moxy is around 230w, also when I’m fairly fresh
- Threshold based on 20 min test and feel is between 240 and 245w (Xert and WKO both have FTP @ 240w)
Based on one of your previous posts, I think this make up would suggest I might be better suited training around LT1 and below and adding some high intensity rather than doing tempo work since it’s so close to threshold?
Anyway, after looking over the week I think I just might have been an idiot and tried to do too much. Here was my week.
- Monday - OFF
- Tuesday am - super early sweet spot ride (4 x 16m with some bursts); 2h25m and 146 TSSS
- Tuesday pm - 90 min of strength included 5 x 5 heavy front squats
- Wednesday - 3 x 17m sweet spot with 90s had start; 2h5m and 129 TSS
- Thursday - OFF
- Friday am - long ride with 3 hours alternating between high Z2 / low Z3 (approx LT1 and your Tempo by heart rate); 4 hours and 211 TSS [a ride inspired by you]
- Friday pm - 60 min strength with front squats and deadlifts (heavy)
- Saturday am - mash up ride using Sufferfest; around 37 min of sweet spot, a bit of VO2, and 5 x 4 min @ tempo with low cadence; 2h35m and 150 TSS
- Saturday pm - 1h25m with 2 x 10m tempo late; 1h25m and 66 TSS
- Sunday (today) - 1h yoga
So, basically two two-day blocks, each with a lengthly strength session, the first including around 4.5 hours of riding and the second eight. Images since I like color and think it helps visualize zones.
@fazel1010 without diving pretty deep this looks like too much training, more than I would likely plan in one week.
How many weeks have you followed this type of layout?
Below are a few screenshots of your sessions. Even at power levels that I would expect stable or increasing smo2, you are declining, so this means that you are likely training in a lactate increasing state in sessions where you think you should be stable.
This can happen with the combination of the type of strength you are doing combined with the type of cycling you are doing.
If you are still feeling ok, but tired then I would recommend at least one full week of endurance below 175w without any muscular fatigue, all training with increasing smo2.
If you are feeling nervous that you have overreached a little too much then same as above, but longer 2-3 weeks. Every 10th day repeat a workout that is sub-threshold be challenging to see how you are feeling above LT1.
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Hi @steveneal. Thank you very much for the reply.
In retrospect, I should have been able to figure this out myself. The past week was the last of a three week block and I was chasing TSS a bit. The focus of the block was sweet spot, so these workouts were at least partially scheduled (the Tuesday and Wednesday ones were, the Saturday mashup was a combination of the planned Saturday ride and Thursday rides).
I will ride easy for a week, re-assess, and then report back.
There isn’t much sweetspot in this training when I look at all the moxy data, plus the strength just too big of a block in my opinion.
At least you have realized you are tired, now to make this stress work in your favour just be patient and listen to your body.
Don’t chase TSS it will often get you into more trouble at this level.
In your aerobic intervals below, you can see positive sloping smo2 in one section and negative in the other.
You likely need to keep the harder section 3 or 4x the length of the short section, you need it to be a positive slope as well but you need more time. So any over under, the UNDER likely needs to be 3 to 4x the OVER to get a nice benefit.
@steveneal I heard you say in one of the podcasts you were interviewed in, that you sort of use reverse periodisation in many of your athletes. Is that to raise FTP/VO2 wattages before using tempo to extend TTE? What would the differences be by either doing this to initially raise these wattages and doing this in a more ‘traditional’ way i.e do the tempo type intervals first and then raise FTP and VO2 - a quicker progression?
First does seem to make sense to me, but I have used reverse periodisation before in Morris style training back in my 40s with good effect.
I have often found that after a reasonable break after a long season that top-down intensity falls the most.
So when getting back into training adding some performance back into the athlete at the top end, raises the ceiling. Then with the top end ceiling raised somewhat, there is more room for the tempo training to grow.
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That is also what Jan Olbrecht promotes in his book ‘The science of winning’ (there is a great podcast about this from Scientific Triathlon.
The extreme summary is: create more strength, than build the endurance for those strong muscles.
This brought me to the believe that you can always combine high intensity in endurance training, to speed up the process of getting stronger, while continuously working on endurance.
Translated to Steve’s Fatmax Magic: a few sprints in a fatmax workout could speed up your total performance development. ‘A few’ should be personalised into ‘how many 30s sprints can i handle without extended recovery needs’.
If one can handle 2x 20m as discussed in this thread, you could add the sprints prior to extending the 2x 20 into more repetitions or longer bouts.
Besides the performance benefits, it will spice up your session.
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I have have just come out of 4 solid months of base. Based on what you say above, would you say now is time to get some 5 x 5 min work (or equivalent) in for a few weeks, to raise my ceiling back up a bit, then drop intensity and extend duration in next blocks etc. My events are brevets which are ultra endurance, main event of 1519km not till August.
Been on turbo couple of times this week to get the legs used to the type of work again.
I would likely say yes, but I would test first.
Do you have a powermeter and heart rate monitor?
Any other equipment like lactate meter or moxy monitor?